When DC went downhill

Post by Seaclock
Maybe this has been discussed before, but when, if ever, do people think
DC jumped the shark? I really liked season 2 and don't feel that season
3 lived up to it, but I found the show varied from good to tolerable
until the end of season 5. Season 6, however, was pretty bad. On the
whole, the gang never should have left Capeside.
Seaclock

Agreed about Capeside. I think the series got worse when it went to the
city... the series finale was good because it returned to Capeside.

mbg.

Rob Jensen

2004-06-13 00:50:35 UTC

Being a Creek newbie who jumped on with the DVDs and the most recent
round of repeats on TBS (Jan - May), I thought the show was *great* all
the way through the end of Season 4 and good in s5, but jumped the shark
when Dawson and Joey finally boinked at the top of s6 (thus destroying
the s5 finale in the process).

I thought that the Dawson-Gretchen storyline in s4 made up for the
mistakes the writers made with Pacey and Joey that season. Season 5
would have made a fine transition season to a new four-or-so-year arc if
it weren't for s6 making it clear that the writers didn't have a game
plan for the college years. Joey darn near jumped the shark as a
character with the mugging episode, which completed more of her
father-fixation arc than it really should have -- the episode was as
unsubtle as a brick in the head and was too long by about ten minutes.
IMO, the story needed to be severely edited, especially in the death
scene and an unrelated, possibly comedic, B-story from Pacey or Dawson
should have been added for contrast. I thought Mitch's death in s5
played rather well in retrospect and helped to fuel the rest of Dawson's
arc quite nicely.

Season 6 was a train wreck. I knew it was coming, but Joey and Dawson
sleeping together ultimately felt like incest and the series floundered
for the rest of the season as a result. Saddling JJ and Pacey with a
storyline that was nothing more than a tenth-rate ripoff of The Boiler
Room pissed me off. Audrey was a blast in s5, which makes their
mistreatment of the character in s6 all the more irritating and Audrey
driving the car through the Leerys' porch was darn near the final straw
for me, but starting with the rehab episode, they started to get their
bearings back with both her and Dawson. And what the hell happened to
Jack & Jen in s6? Jack disappears for half the season and acts like a
cocktease when he comes back (note: I'm straight and I *hated* Jack's
aimlessness in s6. He deserved *much* better than that.) and Jen's
practically a guest star. s6 was so unfocused that at times, I thought
*Todd* was the only character worth watching. I've read that part of
the problem was that the s6 renewal was unexpected and certain unnamed
cast members didn't even want to do it. And it shows.

But at least they rallied to wrap the characters up in the last
four-five episodes before the finale. I liked the finale, but wish
Williamson would have written either Audrey or Gretchen or both into it
rather than stick with just the characters he'd created -- especially
since Stupin had been telegraphing since at least as early as the s4
finale that they were going to jump 5 years ahead in the timeline at
some point. Jack ending up with Deputy Doug (and Jen's baby) was a
brilliantly done surprise even though I knew it was coming. Jen's death
completed the show's cribbing of Dumas's Camille quite well.

I recommend to newbies to skip from the 2-part s6 opener all the way to
"All Good Things" and ignore everything in-between even though I'm
partial to Dawson's arc, especially the last two episodes before the
finale when Joey rallies the troops to film Dawson's movie.
(Ironically, Dawson's my least favorite of the core characters -- Andie
and Audrey included -- but I found him the only one of the core with a
consistently watchable storyline in s6, BID). Skip five years from
Dawson and Joey boinking and both the Joey-Dawson and Joey-Pacey
pairings are left totally up in the air and lead into the finale much
more effectively than the hopeless muddle of s6 made them turn out to
be, IMO.

-- Rob

--
LORELAI: In the movie, only boy hobbits travel to Mount
Doom, but that's only because the girls went to do something
even more dangerous.
GIRL: What?
LORELAI: Have you ever heard of a Brazilian Bikini Wax?

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-14 00:28:57 UTC

Being a Creek newbie who jumped on with the DVDs and the most recent
round of repeats on TBS (Jan - May), I thought the show was *great* all
the way through the end of Season 4 and good in s5, but jumped the shark
when Dawson and Joey finally boinked at the top of s6 (thus destroying
the s5 finale in the process).
I thought that the Dawson-Gretchen storyline in s4 made up for the
mistakes the writers made with Pacey and Joey that season. Season 5
would have made a fine transition season to a new four-or-so-year arc if
it weren't for s6 making it clear that the writers didn't have a game
plan for the college years. Joey darn near jumped the shark as a
character with the mugging episode, which completed more of her
father-fixation arc than it really should have -- the episode was as
unsubtle as a brick in the head and was too long by about ten minutes.
IMO, the story needed to be severely edited, especially in the death
scene and an unrelated, possibly comedic, B-story from Pacey or Dawson
should have been added for contrast. I thought Mitch's death in s5
played rather well in retrospect and helped to fuel the rest of Dawson's
arc quite nicely.
Season 6 was a train wreck. I knew it was coming, but Joey and Dawson
sleeping together ultimately felt like incest and the series floundered
for the rest of the season as a result. Saddling JJ and Pacey with a
storyline that was nothing more than a tenth-rate ripoff of The Boiler
Room pissed me off. Audrey was a blast in s5, which makes their
mistreatment of the character in s6 all the more irritating and Audrey
driving the car through the Leerys' porch was darn near the final straw
for me, but starting with the rehab episode, they started to get their
bearings back with both her and Dawson. And what the hell happened to
Jack & Jen in s6? Jack disappears for half the season and acts like a
cocktease when he comes back (note: I'm straight and I *hated* Jack's
aimlessness in s6. He deserved *much* better than that.) and Jen's
practically a guest star. s6 was so unfocused that at times, I thought
*Todd* was the only character worth watching. I've read that part of
the problem was that the s6 renewal was unexpected and certain unnamed
cast members didn't even want to do it. And it shows.
But at least they rallied to wrap the characters up in the last
four-five episodes before the finale. I liked the finale, but wish
Williamson would have written either Audrey or Gretchen or both into it
rather than stick with just the characters he'd created -- especially
since Stupin had been telegraphing since at least as early as the s4
finale that they were going to jump 5 years ahead in the timeline at
some point. Jack ending up with Deputy Doug (and Jen's baby) was a
brilliantly done surprise even though I knew it was coming. Jen's death
completed the show's cribbing of Dumas's Camille quite well.
I recommend to newbies to skip from the 2-part s6 opener all the way to
"All Good Things" and ignore everything in-between even though I'm
partial to Dawson's arc, especially the last two episodes before the
finale when Joey rallies the troops to film Dawson's movie.
(Ironically, Dawson's my least favorite of the core characters -- Andie
and Audrey included -- but I found him the only one of the core with a
consistently watchable storyline in s6, BID). Skip five years from
Dawson and Joey boinking and both the Joey-Dawson and Joey-Pacey
pairings are left totally up in the air and lead into the finale much
more effectively than the hopeless muddle of s6 made them turn out to
be, IMO.
-- Rob

Although I hate Season Four above all others, I agree with most of your
Season Six commentary.

I can see Pacey wanting to succeed, to prove to himself that he is not a
loser, but being a stockbroker and a marginally crooked one at that, makes
no sense. I can't see why they didn't have him continue as a chef. I
surprised they made him a chef in season five, but having done that let the
story play out.

Audrey was a good outside commentator on the group, before the alcoholic
plot. It was a useful and fun role they should have continued.

I hate the Dawson Leery character (he is the only character that you are
supposed to like in any series I have watched that I wished would die a
horrible death). Having said that, his story with Todd was enjoyable,
although I credit Todd and not DL.

As for the finale, I was a P/J shipper, but TPTB laid no basis for Joey
getting together with Pacey (or Dawson). I am happy with the result, but
felt I was cheated out of seeing how it happened.

Sharpe Fan

Seaclock

2004-06-14 03:22:15 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
I thought that the Dawson-Gretchen storyline in s4 made up for the
mistakes the writers made with Pacey and Joey that season.

Was Gretchen or an older sister ever mentioned at any time during the
previous seasons? It was, in a way, too cliché to bring in this new
sister just when another irritation between Pacey and Dawson was needed.
Having said that, though, I actually didn't mind the Dawson-Gretchen
storyline, certainly no more than any of the other storylines. (When
you say "mistakes the writers made with Pacey and Joey that season" do
you mean the P-J storyline was a mistake or it was just mishandled? I
didn't like the storyline but it was a necessary complication on the
road to what many of us thought was the ultimate Dawson-Joey
reconciliation. As a diversion I thought it was mishandled. The
writers made Pacey pretty unlikeable and I rarely thought he and Joey
seemed natural together.)

Post by Rob Jensen
Joey darn near jumped the shark as a
character with the mugging episode,

Awful, unnecessary episode.

Post by Rob Jensen
I thought Mitch's death in s5
played rather well in retrospect and helped to fuel the rest of Dawson's
arc quite nicely.

I too thought the death story was well-done. Not sure it was smart to
hook him up with Jen afterward though the dinner episode was priceless,
thanks in no small part to Audrey.

Post by Rob Jensen
I've read that part of
the problem was that the s6 renewal was unexpected and certain unnamed
cast members didn't even want to do it. And it shows.

Unnamed? I've read that JVDB wanted his part pared down and maybe
that's why the show seemed to revolve so much around Joey and that guy
whose name escapes me.

Post by Rob Jensen
I liked the finale, but wish
Williamson would have written either Audrey or Gretchen or both into it
rather than stick with just the characters he'd created -- especially
since Stupin had been telegraphing since at least as early as the s4
finale that they were going to jump 5 years ahead in the timeline at
some point.

Hmmm, I've never been sure about this "five years later" thing. It felt
rushed, the conclusion was unsatisfying -- I think no matter which way
you wanted it to go -- and I'm not really sure why it was necessary to
skip ahead five years. When you consider that there were still two more
years of college to go when the regular series ended, was it realistic
to think they would all have such settled lives only three years after
graduation? Yes, I know this is TV-land where things don't have to be
sensible but... It felt a little like an episode of "Thirtysomething."

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hate the Dawson Leery character

What is it exactly that people hate about him? Too moody? Too
self-centered? I've never thought him particularly worse than any of
the others except that he seemed almost entirely humorless except for
the birthday episode when he and Andie sang. I found Pacey more
consistently unlikeable except when he was with Andie who seemed to
really make him shine. He was intelligent and noble whereas with Joey,
the woman who was supposed to make him a better man, he turned into an
academic flunky and and a surly, discontented boyfriend.

Post by Sharpe Fan
As for the finale, I was a P/J shipper, but TPTB laid no basis for Joey
getting together with Pacey (or Dawson). I am happy with the result, but
felt I was cheated out of seeing how it happened.

I've talked about this before but the whole idea of there having to be a
"Dawson or Pacey?" question to be resolved was so unrealistic. After
all this time when their lives would have changed enormously, what on
earth would Joey be doing running back to either of her high school
boyfriends? They all would have moved on to other people and the most
realistic thing would have been a few days in Capeside when they would
have caught up, reminisced, maybe talked about what might have been, but
still they would have gone back to other things. BUT, that's not what
the series was about and so I found the P-J ending unsatisfying. KW
originally wrote a D-J finale but felt sorry for Pacey who was left
alone (Meredith Monroe was not available for the necessary time it would
have taken to re-establish Andie in Pacey's life) so he rewrote it. As
I said above, the finale seemed rushed to me.

Seaclock

Rob Jensen

2004-06-14 10:13:07 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
I thought that the Dawson-Gretchen storyline in s4 made up for the
mistakes the writers made with Pacey and Joey that season.

Was Gretchen or an older sister ever mentioned at any time during the
previous seasons?

Yes. They'd mentioned vaguely that Pacey had multiple older sisters,
with the only specific 'til Gretchen's debut being that one had moved
back home with her kids in tow (and who obviously wasn't Gretchen), but
there was more than enough wiggle room in Pacey's family life to keep
Gretchen from being an out-and-out retcon.

Post by Seaclock
It was, in a way, too cliché to bring in this new
sister just when another irritation between Pacey and Dawson was needed.
Having said that, though, I actually didn't mind the Dawson-Gretchen
storyline, certainly no more than any of the other storylines. (When
you say "mistakes the writers made with Pacey and Joey that season" do
you mean the P-J storyline was a mistake or it was just mishandled?

Just the way it was handled, especially toward the Prom and graduation.
Even though I relate to Pacey's inferiority complex (my Dad was
*exactly* like his in verbal abusiveness), I don't buy that Pacey would
blame Joey for having a better life than he did and break up with her
over it. Dude, if I were Pacey and taking someone like Joey to my Prom,
not even having an asshole father repeatedly cut me down would make me
forget that someone like Joey went for *me,* thus disproving everything
said asshole father ever said about me. OTOH, I liked that they had
Pacey learn from that boneheaded mistake in s5. Which made Pacey's
Boiler Room regression in s6 all the more infuriating.

Post by Rob Jensen
I thought Mitch's death in s5
played rather well in retrospect and helped to fuel the rest of Dawson's
arc quite nicely.

I too thought the death story was well-done. Not sure it was smart to
hook him up with Jen afterward though the dinner episode was priceless,
thanks in no small part to Audrey.

Post by Rob Jensen
I've read that part of
the problem was that the s6 renewal was unexpected and certain unnamed
cast members didn't even want to do it. And it shows.

Unnamed? I've read that JVDB wanted his part pared down and maybe
that's why the show seemed to revolve so much around Joey and that guy
whose name escapes me.

I was being polite. =) I know that the Beek wasn't the only cast
member who was nonplussed by the s6 renewal. In particular, JJ seemed
to be phoning in any scene that didn't involve the Beek, KH or Pacey's
family.

That guy: Eddie "Pacey with the serial numbers filed off" Doling. I
thought her story with him worked fine -- until they brought him back
after his disappearance. After Joey & Dawson boinked, it seemed like
they never knew how to end *any* storylines for the rest of the season.
OK. We get it, Joey's saving yet another Pacey. Time to move on.
Every character was left floundering until the movie story at the end.

I suspect that part of the problem is that s6 *was* meant as exposition
for hypothetical seasons 7 and 8 and we never did get to see where they
were really intending to take Audrey, Pacey, Jack and Jen. The
resolutions to their storylines before the finale were all hasty, almost
afterthoughts after the writers had burned their mental wad on retaining
the throughlines of Dawson and Joey's separate storylines. Thus, in s6
Pacey works best as a supporting character in Joey's story and it's
best, IMO, to think of a Phantom Edit of s6 in which Jack, Jen and
Audrey's storylines never happened.

I think the skipping ahead five years was always intended to be a
distancing exercise, to answer the characters' own questions about
whether or not they'd ever get enough distance from their psychoanalytic
precociousness long enought to *live* their lives rather than
deconstruct their lives before it happens to them. While I thought that
the finale in and of itself was well-written and performed, I also don't
think it works in relation to the truncated College Years arc for the
same reason -- not enough distance from the turbulent High School Years.
However, if you ignore everything that happened between Dawson & Joey
boinking and the finale and take those four episodes as an extended
finale to s5, I think s5's relation to the first four seasons becomes
apparent -- we finally get to watch them put all that self-referential
theorizing to the test and see that they *do* start to live their lives.
If we treat the rest of s6 (aside from the opening two-parter) as
apocryphal, then, IMO, the finale gets enough distance from the High
School Years that it works.

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hate the Dawson Leery character

I thought that Dawson was far too *passive* a character to ever be the
hero and moral authority that the writers tried to make him out to be
and as a result, I thought he was virtually wasted as a character after
s1 until they pulled the brilliant move of making him the *villain* at
the end of season 3. Making him the King Arthur to Joey's Guin and
Pacey's Lancelot multiplied the impact of the deconstructive nature of
the story by not just making it mythic, but by aggressively embracing
the fact that they were deconstructing such a classic myth throughout
the course of the rest of s3 and s4, Dawson became a more active,
engaging character. I don't think that the show would have reached even
s5 if Dawson hadn't made Joey take that boat trip with Pacey at the end
of s3.

Post by Seaclock
I found Pacey more
consistently unlikeable except when he was with Andie who seemed to
really make him shine. He was intelligent and noble whereas with Joey,
the woman who was supposed to make him a better man, he turned into an
academic flunky and and a surly, discontented boyfriend.

Well, the Pacey-Andie story of s2 was such a well-constructed,
self-contained novel, I find it hard sometimes not to think of
everything that happened to Pacey afterward as something of a let-down,
even though I thought the beginning of P-J's relationship was just as
amazing as the end of Pacey & Andie's story in s2. Had they left the
Pacey-Joey story alone after s5 and skipped to the finale, I think the
P-J arc would read better.

IIRC, wouldn't the fans have (metaphorically) killed KW if Joey *hadn't*
ended up with Pacey?

Look at it this way: Phantom Edit Dawson's movie story from s6 into s5
(evicting much of the Dawson-Oliver arc, especially since Oliver was so
frickin' annoying) and cap it with the top of s6, Joey and Dawson
sleeping together *and* it ending badly. That leaves the D-J question
hanging for five years. Add the "Career Opportunities" rip-off from s6
("Castaways") and that *might* just be enough to rekindle P-J and the
D-J-P conundrum. Although I admit that it's pretty hard to justify the
rekindly of P-J, much less Pacey's inappropriate goatee, with any sort
of a set-up other than perhaps to suggest that it would happen 'Five
Years Later' . . . most logically as an episode-long prologue to "All
Good Things." Of course, such massive restructuring would necessitate
changing or editing out dialogue here and there across many of the
surving s5 episodes that would otherwise contradict the new scenario,
but that's why it's called editing.

-- Rob

Seaclock

2004-06-15 04:05:39 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
That guy: Eddie "Pacey with the serial numbers filed off" Doling. I
thought her story with him worked fine -- until they brought him back
after his disappearance.

I would say that in retrospect the biggest problem with S6 for me,
besides its basic awfulness, was that since everything eventually led
back to Capeside and the D-J-P triangle, spending a lot of energy on
relationships and storylines that had no chance of surviving until the
end made it all seem like so much time filler. The core characters
became so uninvolved with each other and yet everything ultimately had
to lead back to a point that had nothing to do with what happened for
most of the season. (I have to admit, I don't have great recall of S6
because I disliked it so much my interest took a vacation.) In
comparison, S5 did a much better job of keeping some small part of that
Capeside feeling going even with the change of venue.

Seaclock

Rob Jensen

2004-06-16 00:51:21 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
That guy: Eddie "Pacey with the serial numbers filed off" Doling. I
thought her story with him worked fine -- until they brought him back
after his disappearance.

I try to be patient with s6, given that they didn't think they were
going to be renewed in the first place and also given that they were
more than likely trying to establish story threads in the first half of
s6 that could last through hypothetical s7 and 8. I had less of a
problem with the core characters not interacting all that much with each
than with the stories not allowing the characters to evolve or at least
add anything new to our understanding of the characters -- with the
exception of Dawson, who was the core character I was least interested
in. I thought that Dawson maintained the Capeside feel by trying so
hard to keep it in his work no matter how much the reality of the biz
smacked him upside the head. It's too bad that the show didn't last
long enough to make any of the rest of the points it was apparently
trying to make, tho.

-- Rob

Seaclock

2004-06-16 02:26:21 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
I try to be patient with s6, given that they didn't think they were
going to be renewed in the first place and also given that they were
more than likely trying to establish story threads in the first half of
s6 that could last through hypothetical s7 and 8. I had less of a
problem with the core characters not interacting all that much with each
than with the stories not allowing the characters to evolve or at least
add anything new to our understanding of the characters -- with the
exception of Dawson, who was the core character I was least interested
in. I thought that Dawson maintained the Capeside feel by trying so
hard to keep it in his work no matter how much the reality of the biz
smacked him upside the head. It's too bad that the show didn't last
long enough to make any of the rest of the points it was apparently
trying to make, tho.
-- Rob

I think the next time S6 comes around on TBS I'll try to give at another
try. I admit my first experience with it made such a bad impression I
probably have a residing bias against it. I'm interested in reading
your further thoughts on your last sentence above. Where do you think
it would have gone in another season?

Seaclock

Rob Jensen

2004-06-16 09:50:36 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
I try to be patient with s6, given that they didn't think they were
going to be renewed in the first place and also given that they were
more than likely trying to establish story threads in the first half
of s6 that could last through hypothetical s7 and 8. I had less of a
problem with the core characters not interacting all that much with
each than with the stories not allowing the characters to evolve or at
least add anything new to our understanding of the characters -- with
the exception of Dawson, who was the core character I was least
interested in. I thought that Dawson maintained the Capeside feel by
trying so hard to keep it in his work no matter how much the reality
of the biz smacked him upside the head. It's too bad that the show
didn't last long enough to make any of the rest of the points it was
apparently trying to make, tho.

I'm not sure where it would have gone, but given that they couldn't
resist bringing Eddie back when they shouldn't have *and* they restarted
J-P with the Career Opportunities riff, I *suspect* that the end of a s6
leading into a s7 (and therefore not capped by "All Good Things") would
have resulted in a J-P-E triangle and showdown, possibly with Dawson
playing referee. I also think that Dawson would have ended up at least
dating Audrey for a substantial part of s7, 'cause the potential for
irony in that hookup screams to me that the writers hadn't yet *begun*
to address the real reason they wanted Audrey to hit that rock bottom
that way or the sideways attraction that Audrey was just starting to
develop for Dawson with the rehab episode (and which they curtailed once
they announced the show's cancellation). The symbolic importance of the
Leery house being destroyed by one of the core characters (and by that
point, Audrey was well-established as a core character) suggests to me
that they were on the verge of a storyline that would have put Dawson's
"moral authority" to the test -- just *how* many times could Dawson
"save" everyone around him, and what would happen if *he* fell further
off his pedestal (with or without Audrey) than *anyone* in the group had
gone before? Not necessarily anything like Audrey's drug/alcohol abuse,
but something just as alienating -- or even *more* alienating to the
gang than Audrey's meltdown.

To use a Buffy analogy -- I think they might have been steering Dawson
in an s7 to a place similar to Buffy in her s6, minus the Ick! factor
that I love so much about Buffy s6. Would any of the gang *want* to
save him if he somehow went *that* far off the deep end? He was the
only one of the seven core characters (D, J, P, Jack, Jen, Andie,
Audrey) to not be the center of their own pitch-black storyline at some
point in the series, although the immediate fallout of Mitch's death
came close. And by pitch-black, I mean either a grand moral failing or
the blackest of psychological issues and personal dilemmas. Examples:
Jen-substance abuse & sex issues, Andie-mental breakdown, Jack-coming
out(not a moral failing, but a stressor of nearly the level of Andie's
meltdown), Audrey-substance abuse, Pacey-Andie's breakdown and his own
parental psychological abuse, Joey-her father. I don't think they'd
even begun to make Dawson run through the dark places they seemed to
want to take him.

-- Rob

Seaclock

2004-06-17 02:57:10 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
I'm not sure where it would have gone, but given that they couldn't
resist bringing Eddie back when they shouldn't have *and* they restarted
J-P with the Career Opportunities riff, I *suspect* that the end of a s6
leading into a s7 (and therefore not capped by "All Good Things") would
have resulted in a J-P-E triangle and showdown, possibly with Dawson
playing referee. I also think that Dawson would have ended up at least
dating Audrey for a substantial part of s7, 'cause the potential for
irony in that hookup screams to me that the writers hadn't yet *begun*
to address the real reason they wanted Audrey to hit that rock bottom
that way or the sideways attraction that Audrey was just starting to
develop for Dawson with the rehab episode (and which they curtailed once
they announced the show's cancellation).

I think an Audrey-Dawson plot would have been great if for no other
reason than Audrey was hilarious in S5 and the contrast in personalities
would have been fodder for some humor. As I said earlier, Dawson seemed
pretty humorless for the most part, not that the show ever went for many
laughs from the core group.

Post by Rob Jensen
The symbolic importance of the
Leery house being destroyed by one of the core characters (and by that
point, Audrey was well-established as a core character) suggests to me
that they were on the verge of a storyline that would have put Dawson's
"moral authority" to the test -- just *how* many times could Dawson
"save" everyone around him, and what would happen if *he* fell further
off his pedestal (with or without Audrey) than *anyone* in the group had
gone before? Not necessarily anything like Audrey's drug/alcohol abuse,
but something just as alienating -- or even *more* alienating to the
gang than Audrey's meltdown.

The thing is, would a Dawson meltdown just lead to more conflict with
Joey because she would want to save him, or at least be in the lead of
any group effort to rescue him? The consequences of that turn of events
are all too obvious -- more conflict between Joey and Pacey because,
once again, Dawson, Dawson, Dawson; conflict between J and Audrey
because a) Dawson is now Audrey's guy or b) with Audrey's past J will
think she dragged him down. (Now, just what could Dawson do to lead him
down the dark path?)

The thing is, the show had become such a lost cause that I don't think
the writers could even have dared to devise storylines that might lead
in any of these directions. Was the show canceled in the ordinary way
(i.e. ratings) or did everyone just decide to pack it in? In either
case, I'm sure they knew that there was nothing coming after S6.

By the way, totally off-topic, was Andie written out because MM wanted
to leave or did she leave because Andie was written out? I always
thought the latter.

Seaclock

Rob Jensen

2004-06-17 07:50:05 UTC

The symbolic importance of the Leery house being destroyed by one of
the core characters (and by that point, Audrey was well-established as
a core character) suggests to me that they were on the verge of a
storyline that would have put Dawson's "moral authority" to the test
-- just *how* many times could Dawson "save" everyone around him, and
what would happen if *he* fell further off his pedestal (with or
without Audrey) than *anyone* in the group had gone before? Not
necessarily anything like Audrey's drug/alcohol abuse, but something
just as alienating -- or even *more* alienating to the gang than
Audrey's meltdown.

The thing is, would a Dawson meltdown just lead to more conflict with
Joey because she would want to save him, or at least be in the lead of
any group effort to rescue him? The consequences of that turn of events
are all too obvious -- more conflict between Joey and Pacey because,
once again, Dawson, Dawson, Dawson; conflict between J and Audrey
because a) Dawson is now Audrey's guy or b) with Audrey's past J will
think she dragged him down. (Now, just what could Dawson do to lead him
down the dark path?)
The thing is, the show had become such a lost cause that I don't think
the writers could even have dared to devise storylines that might lead
in any of these directions. Was the show canceled in the ordinary way
(i.e. ratings) or did everyone just decide to pack it in? In either
case, I'm sure they knew that there was nothing coming after S6.

The renewal for s6 was virtually a fluke (I'd even heard that at the
time and I'd never seen even an episode), so I think they knew for the
entire s6 that they were teetering on the edge of cancellation. I think
the cancellation was announced similar to the cancellation of Angel,
Jan-Feb-ish, early enough to give them enough time to cap the storylines
at the end of the season. Even so, I think for the first half of the
season, they were *trying* to do set up to lead to a possible s7 and
beyond. It'd be ludicrous for a show to *not* try to plan ahead no
matter what -- there's just too much money involved for them to not make
an honest effort to at least try to make it work, regardless of whether
s6 ultimately worked or not.

Curiously, now that I'm thinking about it, there is a certain kind of
attitudinal similarity between s6 of Joey's Creek and s8-9 of The
X-Files -- I'm not talking about the stories, obviously, but the
apparent creative mood and the way they were doing them. In the first
half of Creek s6 and s8 through the first half of s9 of The X-Files,
they were obviously trying to set up new long-term story arcs with some
arguable success, but once the cancellations were announced, the teams
gave up and the series' respective stories degenerated into incoherence
until the creators returned to write the series' final episodes. Like
with the final half-season of the X-Files, the final half season of
Creek was marred by the creative team finally giving up.

-- Rob

Seaclock

2004-06-18 02:29:13 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
Curiously, now that I'm thinking about it, there is a certain kind of
attitudinal similarity between s6 of Joey's Creek and s8-9 of The
X-Files

I think I'm the only person alive who never watched The X-Files. Or Buffy.

Seaclock

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-18 03:09:47 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
Curiously, now that I'm thinking about it, there is a certain kind of
attitudinal similarity between s6 of Joey's Creek and s8-9 of The
X-Files

I think I'm the only person alive who never watched The X-Files. Or Buffy.
Seaclock

I never saw the X-Files, but I did see all the Buffy's, except one.

Sharpe Fan

Rob Jensen

2004-06-19 02:00:19 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
Curiously, now that I'm thinking about it, there is a certain kind of
attitudinal similarity between s6 of Joey's Creek and s8-9 of The X-Files

I think I'm the only person alive who never watched The X-Files. Or Buffy.

Blasphemere! ;)

-- Rob

Seaclock

2004-06-19 03:46:30 UTC

Post by Rob Jensen
Curiously, now that I'm thinking about it, there is a certain kind of
attitudinal similarity between s6 of Joey's Creek and s8-9 of The X-Files

I think I'm the only person alive who never watched The X-Files. Or Buffy.

Blasphemere! ;)
-- Rob

Yes, it seems I may have to look into this Buffy thing. The X-Files,
however, i just don't see that happening. ;-)

Seaclock

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-17 13:59:25 UTC

[snipped]

Post by Seaclock
By the way, totally off-topic, was Andie written out because MM wanted
to leave or did she leave because Andie was written out? I always
thought the latter.
Seaclock

It was the latter. TPTB decided they had no more stories for Andie and
wrote her out. She only had two stories when she was on: dating Pacey and
her mental illness. The show was not geared to dealing long-term with a
mentally ill character so that couldn't be an on-going plot and once she
cheated on Pacey that more or less eliminated an romantic stories with other
core characters. (She and Dawson were not really compatible.)

They didn't have much more for Jack to do. He soon became the gay guy and
they didn't want to do much with that (and I understand the actor wasn't
interested in it either) and they had no stories for him either.

Sharpe Fan

Seaclock

2004-06-18 02:25:58 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
[snipped]

Post by Seaclock
By the way, totally off-topic, was Andie written out because MM wanted
to leave or did she leave because Andie was written out? I always
thought the latter.
Seaclock

Too bad about that. I know a lot of people didn't like Andie --
couldn't stand her voice, etc. From the very short scenes with her in
the finale it's pretty obvious that that was the way the character was
supposed to be as a teenager and not something MM couldn't help because
the five-years-later Andie was very mature. One wonders if they would
have found something for her to do if KW had stayed on board. From the
commentary on the finale both he and Paul Stupin worked for a long time
to get her back for that episode which indicates to me that the
character mattered to him. He stated pretty directly that he didn't
like what they did with her in S3. I think I'd read that he wasn't
happy with the way they got rid of her, either. As you can tell, I'm
partial to her.

Post by Sharpe Fan
They didn't have much more for Jack to do. He soon became the gay guy and
they didn't want to do much with that (and I understand the actor wasn't
interested in it either) and they had no stories for him either.

Yeah, Jack got dull fast. Not that I didn't like Jack but I can't see
that anything he went through was markedly more interesting than what
Andie could have gone through or, for that matter, what they did with
Jen who was a more central character.

Seaclock

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-18 03:12:59 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
[snipped]

Post by Seaclock
By the way, totally off-topic, was Andie written out because MM wanted
to leave or did she leave because Andie was written out? I always
thought the latter.
Seaclock

Since they didn't really have much for either character to do after season
two, it would have been better to have them as non-regulars and have them
move back to Providence at the end of the season.

Use'em or lose'em.

Sharpe Fan

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-14 14:32:31 UTC

"Seaclock" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@hotmail.com...
[snipped]

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hate the Dawson Leery character

I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend. If you were
down he was a "good friend" because he could feel superior. If you did
well, he resented it. He had a sense of entitlement that was unlimited. He
assigned everyone in his life a role in the"screenplay" of his life that he
wrote and if you dared to deviate from the role assigned he would try to
force you back into the role - that role being to show by comparison how
great is Dawson.

I really liked the Andie/Pacey story in season two and was unhappy when it
ended. However, I thought the Pacey/Joey story line in season three was
also great. And in season three Pacey was still doing well, as far as we
could tell. It wasn't until season four that the writers "revealed' that
Pacey was an academic disaster in season three. I think this was partly to
help cause the P/J relationship to crash (Oh, the drama!) and partly to make
help Dawson shine by comparison.

Season four was the deification of Dawson. He literally saves Pacey and Jen
in the beginning of the season and saves Joey college dream at the end and
in the middle restores a dieing filmmakers love of life and movies. Crap on
a stick (to quote JoA). The only reason Dawson stole the boat to save Pacey
was to connect him with the dieing director. Dawson could have easily
ordered the storm to abate and walked out to the boat.

I disagree that KW intended a D/J ending. I have no proof for my position
either, but unless you someone has documented quotes from him on the
subject, I don't want to get into it. I went through the P/J vs. D/J wars
at the time and don't want to relive them now.

Sharpe Fan

Seaclock

2004-06-14 15:31:31 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend. If you were
down he was a "good friend" because he could feel superior. If you did
well, he resented it.

Good point which I never thought of. It brings to mind what he said to
Pacey at his 16th birthday, something like Pacey's life was supposed to
be awful so the he, Dawson, could fell better about his own.

Post by Sharpe Fan
Season four was the deification of Dawson. He literally saves Pacey and Jen
in the beginning of the season and saves Joey college dream at the end and
in the middle restores a dieing filmmakers love of life and movies. Crap on
a stick (to quote JoA). The only reason Dawson stole the boat to save Pacey
was to connect him with the dieing director. Dawson could have easily
ordered the storm to abate and walked out to the boat.

LOL! On the other hand, couldn't you just argue that this was Dawson's
better nature coming out? Maybe he was growing up?

Post by Sharpe Fan
I disagree that KW intended a D/J ending. I have no proof for my position
either, but unless you someone has documented quotes from him on the
subject, I don't want to get into it.

I'm pretty sure I heard in the DVD commentary that indeed it was a D-J
finale first but then he changed it. I will check this again. Anyway,
the cut scene between Pacey and Andie in the hospital made me really
wish TPTB had been able to get them back together as they seemed so
natural (there's that word) togther, but schedules are schedules.

Seaclock

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-14 17:31:11 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend. If you were
down he was a "good friend" because he could feel superior. If you did
well, he resented it.

That scene was the one that made Dawson's failure as a friend very apparent.
The scene was played largely for laughs and I guess we are supposed to
figure Dawson was drunk and so he speech isn't to be trusted. However, the
speech matches his actions and attitudes elsewhere to accurately to be
discounted, IMHO.

Crap on

Post by Sharpe Fan
a stick (to quote JoA). The only reason Dawson stole the boat to save Pacey
was to connect him with the dieing director. Dawson could have easily
ordered the storm to abate and walked out to the boat.

LOL! On the other hand, couldn't you just argue that this was Dawson's
better nature coming out? Maybe he was growing up?

There was never any indication before season four that he had a better
nature and very little evidence in later seasons either.

I remember before the series finale aired there were all sorts of "spoilers"
about a D/J ending. I think the basis was the dream sequence and the TV
show Dawson was running.

I am sure at some point a D/J finale was considered, just like an ending
with Joey with neither of them. You would have to consider the various
alternatives as a writer or producer in order to decide which ending made
the most sense and also made the fans happiest.

They really had written themselves into a bind. Without a lot of
intervening writing - at least a half dozen episodes - it was hard to match
up Joey with either of them. However the audience wanted her with one or
the other (I believe that P/J had a much bigger following by then than D/J)
so I doubt hooking Joey up with someone else or no one was ever seriously
considered.

Sharpe Fan

Seaclock

2004-06-15 03:38:12 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend.

[snip]

Post by Seaclock
On the other hand, couldn't you just argue that this was Dawson's
better nature coming out? Maybe he was growing up?

There was never any indication before season four that he had a better
nature and very little evidence in later seasons either.

I see your point but I guess I don't see him in a quite so black and
white way. In other words, I can see his flaws but I don't hate the
character. I'm willing to allow for some character development.
Anyway, he wasn't the only villain. I think the way Joey treated him
was pretty awful. It probably doesn't need repeating but the way she
dumped him to "find herself" (note to writers: identity crises are for
middle-aged people, not 15-year-olds) then dumped him again out of what
was really misdirected anger at her father for his crimes were not
examples of stellar behavior. I think she really just took it for
granted that she could treat him any way she wanted and he'd be there
for her in the end which, in fact, was true. And yet, somehow, no
matter how she behaved she ended up looking like the victim, or wanting
to. So as far as D-J go, the two of them have plenty to hold against
each other. As for Dawson and other characters, I couldn't be bothered
tonight trying to analyze those relationships.

Post by Sharpe Fan
I disagree that KW intended a D/J ending. [snip]

I'm pretty sure I heard in the DVD commentary that indeed it was a D-J
finale first but then he changed it. I will check this again. [snip]

Okay, I found one reference in the commentary over the reunion scene at
the Ice House. Paul Stupin says to Kevin Williamson that when KW was
writing the first hour the plan was to have Dawson and Joey end up
together and that part of the reason for bringing back Meredith Monroe
was to serve as a "consolation prize" for Pacey who he felt needed some
kind of romantic fulfillment. KW says that ultimately he couldn't live
with that kind of second best arrangement. Interestingly, it was
apparently of no concern that Dawson be shown getting any kind of
emotional fulfillment. Gail gets remarried, Jack gets Doug, Pacey gets
Joey, and Dawson gets a meeting with Spielberg. Doesn't quite measure
up. Now, of course, if you hate Dawson then nothing short a sentence to
serve out his days as the sole inmate of a penal colony is appropriate. ;-)

Post by Sharpe Fan
They really had written themselves into a bind. Without a lot of
intervening writing - at least a half dozen episodes - it was hard to match
up Joey with either of them.

Agreed. That's why the five-year interval was a bad choice from a
technical standpoint so long as the finale had to stand alone
chronologically. That is, if they had wanted to resolve everything
after five years then perhaps a better, if unorthodox, choice would have
been to finish the college portion of S6 several episodes back and then
finish the show with a series of episodes set in the future so that
there could be some coherent explanation for Joey's ending up with
either of them. As things stood, I guess we were supposed to think that
in the five years they hadn't seen each other at all (it felt that way
to me) and thus there was no reason for the issue to come up. Hence my
feeling that the episode was rushed, not in terms of pacing alone but
also in overall quality.

Seaclock

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-15 14:15:38 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend.

[snip]

Post by Seaclock
On the other hand, couldn't you just argue that this was Dawson's
better nature coming out? Maybe he was growing up?

There was never any indication before season four that he had a better
nature and very little evidence in later seasons either.

Even if I liked dawson, I couldn't see how the D/J's thought the two were
destined tobe together because of how they treated each other over the
years. I feel Dawson treated Joey worse (but hat maybe my bias), but she
treated him (and Pacey) poorly also.

The break up caused by her father's re-arrest was well done, I think.
Dawson was right in what he wanted to do, but maybe he could have handled it
nicer. Joey's anger at him for her wearing the wire and her father's arrest
was wrong, but it was understandable. She was mad at her father and herslef
(for wearing the wire) and she took it out on a more or less innocent victim
(Dawson). Her actions makes "sense" even though she is wrong.

Post by Sharpe Fan
I disagree that KW intended a D/J ending. [snip]

I'm pretty sure I heard in the DVD commentary that indeed it was a D-J
finale first but then he changed it. I will check this again. [snip]

;-)

Dawson got the "we will always be special to each other" speech as well as
his "career", so it is not like he was left to die on an ice flow. There
seemed to be more meaningful Dawson/Joey scenes in the finale than
Pacey/Joey scenes.

As an aside, it is a weird "career". His big break in the Capeside
Redemption was a filming on the group's early years (his second attempt at
that, by the way) and now his show is the same thing. He seems to have only
one story to tell - a fictionalized version of his high school years.

Post by Sharpe Fan
They really had written themselves into a bind. Without a lot of
intervening writing - at least a half dozen episodes - it was hard to match
up Joey with either of them.

I like your suggestion of how they could have wrapped up the series. It
would have worked much better than what they did.

And I also got the feeling that the group had only minimal contact in the
intervening years, which makes the Pacey/Joey ending (or a Dawson/Joey for
that matter) seem to come from nowhere.

Post by Seaclock
Seaclock

Sharpe Fan

Seaclock

2004-06-15 20:37:58 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
Dawson got the "we will always be special to each other" speech as well as
his "career", so it is not like he was left to die on an ice flow. There
seemed to be more meaningful Dawson/Joey scenes in the finale than
Pacey/Joey scenes.

My reaction to Dawson's speech is, "Don't kid yourself." For what it's
worth, I found the whole "soul mates" thing to be kind of ridiculous.
Call me jaded, but I think what really ends up mattering is the people
you're with, not some deep, untouchable connection you may think you
have with someone else. I think that scene with Joey was just a sop to
the viewers who were disappointed with the P-J ending. (Did Jack and
Jen have to use the s-word too?)

Post by Sharpe Fan
As an aside, it is a weird "career". His big break in the Capeside
Redemption was a filming on the group's early years (his second attempt at
that, by the way) and now his show is the same thing. He seems to have only
one story to tell - a fictionalized version of his high school years.

I agree completely. Did no one ever, I mean EVER, mention at a story
meeting or script read-through that TPTB had turned him into a one-trick
pony? Very odd.

Post by Sharpe Fan
I like your suggestion of how they could have wrapped up the series. It
would have worked much better than what they did.

Actually, I think Rob Jensen mentioned something like this in another
post in this thread so it's not an entirely original idea. Also, didn't
they do some sort of time shift thing in the final season of "Felicity"?
I don't remember exactly but there was some sort of jump well before
the season ended. Frankly, I don't know why series TV thinks it always
has to follow the calendar slavishly as if the show were happening in
real time. Do they think we'll get confused if winter on TV doesn't
occur at exactly the same time it does in the real world? (Not that
that was ever a problem in Capeside where it almost never snowed. I've
never been to MA but I have it on good authority that they do get snow
there. Who did they think they were kidding? Maybe DC could have been
set in perpetual summer and fall.)

Seaclock

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-15 21:40:08 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
Dawson got the "we will always be special to each other" speech as well as
his "career", so it is not like he was left to die on an ice flow.

There

Post by Sharpe Fan
seemed to be more meaningful Dawson/Joey scenes in the finale than
Pacey/Joey scenes.

I agree completely. Did no one ever, I mean EVER, mention at a story
meeting or script read-through that TPTB had turned him into a one-trick
pony? Very odd.

Post by Sharpe Fan
I like your suggestion of how they could have wrapped up the series. It
would have worked much better than what they did.

Felicity had a time travel story for the last few episodes. I watched one
of them, I think, and none of the others. I don't care much for time travel
stories (the paradoxes are either ignored or become annoying) and I don't
want them in a non-sci-fi story about going to college and growing up (or
not as the case may be).

They did end the school year a few weeks before the end of the show to
accommodate these episodes and one or two non-time travel post college
episodes.

To be honest, I had never thought of a series deliberately running shows
that are out of sync with the calendar (as opposed to those that are merely
non-date dependent). It is an idea worth considering. They do it in
movies. I would still want them to go forward chronologically (no labor Day
before the 4th of July, for instance), but your idea would allow for more
flexibility. For instance, they could have had four years of college in two
seasons - show just important periods and milestones. Since the purpose of
the show was not to show "life in college", but the interaction of friends
that would work out OK. You would have to out a date card at the beginning
of an episode so the viewers would no when they were watching, but that
isn't a problem. Sort of the anti-"24".

Maybe some exec will see your idea and use it.

Sharpe Fan

Rob Jensen

2004-06-16 00:37:53 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
To be honest, I had never thought of a series deliberately running shows
that are out of sync with the calendar (as opposed to those that are merely
non-date dependent). It is an idea worth considering. They do it in
movies. I would still want them to go forward chronologically (no labor Day
before the 4th of July, for instance), but your idea would allow for more
flexibility. For instance, they could have had four years of college in two
seasons - show just important periods and milestones. Since the purpose of
the show was not to show "life in college", but the interaction of friends
that would work out OK. You would have to out a date card at the beginning
of an episode so the viewers would no when they were watching, but that
isn't a problem. Sort of the anti-"24".

I think they should be using date cards *now* in a lot of the programs,
not just the police procedurals and 24. The way time elapses on some of
the shows can be screwy.

-- Rob

Seaclock

2004-06-16 01:56:40 UTC

I think in an early season of ER they did include some episodes that
took place in the summer. Something along those lines would work well
in some shows, particularly when the summer action is supposed to have
some meaning to the series. For example, the summer between S3 and S4
would have been quite interesting: How did Dawson come to grips with
Joey and Pacey? What did Joey tell Pacey about Dawson making her go
with him? What was Joey thinking about when the time to return to
Capeside was approaching? Maybe I'm alone in this but I think that
could have been interesting. I just don't see the need to make the
fictional season follow the real calendar. Anyway, weren't S1 and S2
supposed to be the same school year? If it had been done before, it
could be done again. Make the schedule and pacing follow the needs of
the story, not the other way around. (I agree with you: no jumping
around in time. Keep moving forward but not necessarily in lockstep
with the calendar.)

Seaclock

Brian Brady

2005-09-02 03:15:02 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
I disagree that KW intended a D/J ending. [snip]

I'm pretty sure I heard in the DVD commentary that indeed it was a D-J
finale first but then he changed it. I will check this again. [snip]

Yeah, the all that is left of the original scropt before he pissed on .
. err changed it :-(

Yeah, remember Dawson IS Kevin Williamson.

Brian Brady

2005-09-02 03:11:56 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend.

[snip]

Post by Sharpe Fan
I disagree that KW intended a D/J ending. [snip]

I'm pretty sure I heard in the DVD commentary that indeed it was a D-J
finale first but then he changed it. I will check this again. [snip]

I agree, It is called DAWSON'S CREEK, after all. Dawson was the center
character.

Sharpe Fan

2005-09-02 14:45:06 UTC

Post by Brian Brady

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend.

[snip]

Post by Sharpe Fan
I disagree that KW intended a D/J ending. [snip]

I'm pretty sure I heard in the DVD commentary that indeed it was a D-J
finale first but then he changed it. I will check this again. [snip]

I agree, It is called DAWSON'S CREEK, after all. Dawson was the center
character.

I am sure that was the original intent, but over time Joey became the
center. For one thing, she was the only character in every episode.

Sharpe Fan

Brian Brady

2005-09-02 03:08:27 UTC

Post by Seaclock
I'm pretty sure I heard in the DVD commentary that indeed it was a D-J
finale first but then he changed it. I will check this again. Anyway,
the cut scene between Pacey and Andie in the hospital made me really
wish TPTB had been able to get them back together as they seemed so
natural (there's that word) togther, but schedules are schedules.

Agreed, they were a more natural couple than Pacey/Joey

Rob Jensen

2004-06-16 01:15:53 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
[snipped]

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hate the Dawson Leery character

I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend. If you were
down he was a "good friend" because he could feel superior. If you did
well, he resented it. He had a sense of entitlement that was unlimited. He
assigned everyone in his life a role in the"screenplay" of his life that he
wrote and if you dared to deviate from the role assigned he would try to
force you back into the role - that role being to show by comparison how
great is Dawson.
I really liked the Andie/Pacey story in season two and was unhappy when it
ended. However, I thought the Pacey/Joey story line in season three was
also great. And in season three Pacey was still doing well, as far as we
could tell. It wasn't until season four that the writers "revealed' that
Pacey was an academic disaster in season three. I think this was partly to
help cause the P/J relationship to crash (Oh, the drama!) and partly to make
help Dawson shine by comparison.
Season four was the deification of Dawson. He literally saves Pacey and Jen
in the beginning of the season and saves Joey college dream at the end and
in the middle restores a dieing filmmakers love of life and movies. Crap on
a stick (to quote JoA). The only reason Dawson stole the boat to save Pacey
was to connect him with the dieing director. Dawson could have easily
ordered the storm to abate and walked out to the boat.

Deification of Dawson? I never got that from s4. Maybe part of it
comes from not being part of the hooplah when it was airing for the
first time, but it seemed like Dawson was having a hard time figuring
out where the good decision to make Joey go with Pacey came from. His
relationship with Gretchen made him face up to his lack of life
experience, but even then, he was still making an ass of himself by
constantly trying to compete with Pacey for Joey and other asinine
reasons. Even his arc with Brooks, which I thoroughly enjoyed, was
partly Dawson working through his bitterness about J-P and how he'd
selfishly pushed himself away from moviemaking over it. By losing his
presumption of heroism and moral authority, he became more authentically
heroic. Although his continuing to pine for Joey after Gretchen left
just grated.

-- Rob Jensen

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-16 02:17:03 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
[snipped]

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hate the Dawson Leery character

Post by Sharpe Fan
assigned everyone in his life a role in the"screenplay" of his life that he
wrote and if you dared to deviate from the role assigned he would try to
force you back into the role - that role being to show by comparison how
great is Dawson.
I really liked the Andie/Pacey story in season two and was unhappy when it
ended. However, I thought the Pacey/Joey story line in season three was
also great. And in season three Pacey was still doing well, as far as we
could tell. It wasn't until season four that the writers "revealed' that
Pacey was an academic disaster in season three. I think this was partly to
help cause the P/J relationship to crash (Oh, the drama!) and partly to make
help Dawson shine by comparison.
Season four was the deification of Dawson. He literally saves Pacey and Jen
in the beginning of the season and saves Joey college dream at the end and
in the middle restores a dieing filmmakers love of life and movies.

Crap on

I don't think Dawson ever over the whole six seasons lost his presumption of
heroism or moral authority (or moral superiority) -it just became less
justified.

Sharpe Fan

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-17 00:18:10 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
[snipped]

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hate the Dawson Leery character

Crap on

Season Four seemed to have two opposite themes. One Pacey is a screw up and
his life sucks and two Dawson is the living god and all he touches is gold.

Sharpe Fan

Rob Jensen

2004-06-17 07:36:00 UTC

Post by Sharpe Fan
[snipped]

Post by Sharpe Fan
I hate the Dawson Leery character

I hated Dawson mainly because he was such a horrible friend. If you

were

Post by Sharpe Fan
down he was a "good friend" because he could feel superior. If you did
well, he resented it. He had a sense of entitlement that was unlimited.

Post by Sharpe Fan
assigned everyone in his life a role in the"screenplay" of his life that

Post by Sharpe Fan
wrote and if you dared to deviate from the role assigned he would try to
force you back into the role - that role being to show by comparison how
great is Dawson.
I really liked the Andie/Pacey story in season two and was unhappy when
it ended. However, I thought the Pacey/Joey story line in season three
was also great. And in season three Pacey was still doing well, as far as
we could tell. It wasn't until season four that the writers "revealed'
that Pacey was an academic disaster in season three. I think this was partly
to help cause the P/J relationship to crash (Oh, the drama!) and partly to
make help Dawson shine by comparison.
Season four was the deification of Dawson. He literally saves Pacey and
Jen in the beginning of the season and saves Joey college dream at the end
and in the middle restores a dieing filmmakers love of life and movies.
Crap on a stick (to quote JoA). The only reason Dawson stole the boat to save
Pacey was to connect him with the dieing director. Dawson could have easily
ordered the storm to abate and walked out to the boat.

Season Four seemed to have two opposite themes. One Pacey is a screw up

(That sounds sooooooooooooo much like Sheriff Witter.)

Post by Sharpe Fan
and his life sucks and two Dawson is the living god and all he touches is gold.

Except that Dawson was soooooo despondent over J-P that he *threw*
moviemaking away and moped about it for the first half of that season.
It was only the faith that, at various times, Mitch, Gail and Gretchen
had in him and his blind optimism that gave him the confidence to annoy
Brooks into doing the doc and then to fully embrace making movies again.
In contrast, we get Pacey and how his father is so overbearing and
judgmental that Gretchen's faith in her brother rarely got the chance to
get through to him and even Doug's relatively constructive criticism
could set him off. I'd say the opposing themes were how much influence
these diametrically different fathers had on their children to, on the
one hand, give Dawson that boost he needed to help him reach his dreams
and on the other hand, pull Pacey down by making him think he wasn't
worthy of his own dreams.

-- Rob

Sharpe Fan

2004-06-17 14:14:42 UTC

[snipped]

Post by Sharpe Fan
Season Four seemed to have two opposite themes. One Pacey is a screw up

(That sounds sooooooooooooo much like Sheriff Witter.)

Post by Sharpe Fan
and his life sucks and two Dawson is the living god and all he touches is gold.

Dawson really stopped making movies in season three. He did the rip off of
Blair Witch and that was it. Actually Dawson talked about being the next
Spielberg forever, but after season two did very little towards achieving
it, until Brooks in season 4.

Part of the reason Dawson's filmmaking was interrupted was he wasn't having
any success with it. After his Sea Monster movie one the prize in season
one, none of his other films got any respect until Brooks and he became
discouraged, despite his parents faith in him.

And in season four while he wasn't dreaming of movies he discovered B&W
photography (much more arty than color) and was good at that and considered
pursuing that. Dawson was shown to have a multitude of talents, it was just
which field would he grace with his talents.

Gretchen liked Pacey and didn't think he was a loser, but I didn't see her
acting a cheerleader for him in season four. She was more involved in
Dawson's dramas.

Doug did try to help Pacey, but he was a suspect source from Pacey's point
of view. Doug, for the first three season, treated him as badly as their
father did. Remember Doug even pulled his gun on Pacey in season one over
Tammy.

Sharpe Fan

Brian Brady

2005-09-02 03:07:08 UTC

I did read somewhere that he wrote it both ways.

Rob Jensen

2004-06-14 10:19:30 UTC